Nothing Knew, I was bored and I missed you. About time you responded!
Read my last post Defending Republicans and the comments from Nothing Knew & Nord first!
Good points all, including the email I got from my Uncle. There was actually a Nightline thing on the McCain scandal. Good stuff. I don't disagree with anyone. I just find the timing odd and the sex-thing tacky.
That said, I still stand by my comments about the telecom thing. Again, all the points are valid. My uncle's comment was the most concise and straightforward...
"We must all be accountable...not point fingers."
He also added... "Roger Clemens is not a role model for anyone or any corporation." But I digress...
I've studied enough ethics to see the ethical ambiguities in the wire tap issue. I may be morally outraged, but I again see myself in the position of the exec at the phone company, or a librarian asked for someone's reading logs or anyone the FBI has gone to on their fight against terror. I can't imagine the tough spot they got put in. The light of truth isn't always easy to see in the moment.
Nothing Knew used an illustration to make his point. Well, here's my counter-argument to that one.
Imagine being told that there is a person plotting your death. To stop them, you must steal his garbage before the truck arrives. Imagine instead it's your children that are in danger. Preposterous? Sure! But people were afraid. I know I was. If some Fed came to me in 2001 or even 2004 and asked me to steal my neighbor's trash, I would be hard pressed to refuse. It's easy for us to take our moral high-ground second-guessing now.
Any one of us could have been these people. I mean, my readership includes pastors, computer programmers, financial professionals, government employees...need I say more? There but by the grace of God and some smart corporate lawyers... The only good reason NOT to do it is the reason that Nothing Knew mentioned. There's no point! That part bothers me more than the actual question of the immunity.
But then, I'm also the same guy who thinks we're wasting our time on Roger Clemens. At least the wiretap thing is related to important constitutional & security matters.
4 comments:
"We must all be accountable..." For what? I knew, just knew, that Bush was an idiot back in 1999. I didn't like Gore very much at the time but I KNEW that he was a better choice than Bush.
So I accept no responsibility for this situation with FISA. I have been saying and saying for almost a decade that this is a turning point in American history. We, as a country, had the opportunity to really make a change and proceed forward into the the 21st century. Instead we elected an admitted non-reader who failed at everything he ever did before failing upwards into governorship.
BTW, Fear doesn't excuse behavior. A person is responsible unless there is a reasonable sense that they or their family (or their country) is in imminent danger. By your example situation you suggest that the U.S. is ALWAYS in imminent danger. Which means you've bought into the fear that the Republican party is selling.
That's sad.
We can spend all our time under the bed or we can come out and make things better in the world.
Finally, because I have two small children wanting to go out in the snow, remember, for the Bush Administration (and particularly Darth Cheney) this isn't about helping the telecom companies; this is all about protecting themselves. If there is blanket immunity then there are no more legal case for violation of 4th amendment rights.
For the first year after 911, I was afraid. And if you think that's sad, or that I bought into something, thanks for belittling my fears. I wasn't afraid because the chimp in chief told me, I was afraid because I watched the towers fall live on TV.
I also believed Colin Powell when he went before the UN. Am I a sheep? Judge me as you wish. He had pictures and documents presented by the supposedly best spies in the world.
I would hope that I would have had the courage and conviction to say no to warrantless wiretaps. And just because I can see right from wrong from the sidelines, doesn't mean I would be able to tell it at the moment. I'm so full of myself to know for certain.
So one last time, I'm not looking at this from the perspective of the political ramifications. I'm looking at this as the individual faced with a nebulous league decision in the face of danger (real or perceived.)
We are (or at least I was) discussing the FISA updates and the illegal usage of/evasion of the FISA courts. I wasn't discussing the year or two following September 11, 2001. You sure do set up a lot of straw men to blow down.
Same thing with Colin Powell. I wasn't talking about that time period...but it is kind of sad that we have to look back to someone who was basically side-lined by the Administration and left over three years ago for someone to trust.
9/11 happened. Many of us watched it in real time. Many of us were in large cities (some of us were in NYC itself). There were millions of people on airplanes whose families were worried sick for hours until they heard from them. And then the Anthrax attacks happened (remember those?) and we were afraid all over again.
What was done to change the conditions that caused this fear? We let Osama Bin Ladin escape into the mountains and attacked a two-bit dictator who had less to do with the original attacks than the ruling family in Saudi Arabia. We setup Security Theater in the airports that does nothing to alleviate fear or make people safer, but they do remind everyone that there are "bad people in the world". Oh, and no one seems to care that someone sent weaponized Anthrax through the US Postal Service.
I don't belittle your original fear. I question people who continue to be fearful based on the events of 9/11 (those who weren't there or weren't directly impacted, those who were I can't question their pain). It seems to me that those people are being ruled by their fears and not their dreams/hopes.
You've said you think Obama is the right candidate. He only talks about hope. We can't have hope when our government can get away with flouting the Constitution. We can't have hope when we can't rely on the courts to get to the truth of governmental activities. We can't have hope when we are still very much afraid.
By looking at these activities from the viewpoint of an individual you are doing exactly what the Administration wants you to do. You are sympathizing with those who are taking away your liberties. Weather it is easy or hard we must never allow the liberties we enjoy to be eroded. By circumventing the 4th Amendment the Telecomm companies did just that...and now they are protecting the Administration that demanded it of them.
Imagine how you would have handled it or not handled it. Create scenarios that try to emulate the "if my kid was hungry would I steal bread"...but in the end this isn't about anything as visceral as hunger/life/death this is a political experience. The Administration did this because they felt and still feel that they are beyond the law. The limited steps for a FISA wiretap were just too much paperwork for them.
This is ALL about politics and they are using your fear to push their power hungry ends. We can't let them do it.
Please review FISA carefully. We have the ability to wiretap effectively, while preserving our. . . . .RIGHTS. Did you forget about that? This same line of reasoning is how we managed to intern ~120,000 Americans into camps in the 1940s. Oooohhhh, we were attacked. I'm scared. Let's throw out our constitution in the name of convenience.
Sorry, I was scared too, and I could have easily been at ground zero on 9/11 (I was working with various clients at the time in downtown NYC) but we are a nation of laws, and must abide by them ALL of the time, not just when it is convenient.
According to most national security professionals, FISA works, and has worked since it's inception. The fact that the White House doesn't wish to file paperwork before wiretapping is indicative of a more sinister plan to spy on Americans for other purposes.
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